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| | |-+  lets build a small engine gasifier??
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Author Topic: lets build a small engine gasifier??  (Read 55934 times)
mobile_bob
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« on: October 16, 2009, 12:50:18 PM »

it appears to me, that if the crap hits the fan, maybe fuel is hard to get
i certainly see that here in tacoma,  everytime there is a windstorm
the power goes out, and you cannot get gas/diesel or even propane pumped
however you can get bbq bottles that are already filled to swap, but

in an earlier post, i referred to a publication that referenced a russian gasifier, and they
also refer to a 5gallan pail size unit they built to take to the conference to demonstrate
it running a 10hp onan genset.

so the GEK is not what it was hoped to be?,,
why not a simple unit that could be pressed into emergency service?

something that could be built for a couple hundred bucks or so, over a few weekends
and perhaps it won't last 1000's of hours, but maybe it last a couple hundred and is worthwhile
as a back up fuel source?

seems like if such a design could be made to work, improvements in materials on later generations
could be used to increase the lifespan.

if nothing else, haveing some cooking gas might be useful if things got really bad? as for fuel
there are tons of wood scrap going to the landfill everyday, pallets, old wood furniture, scrap from
furniture shops, cabinet shops, etc.
maybe suitable clean scrap could be fed to a chipper to get it reduced in size to feed a small gasifier
reliably?

i got a half dozen or so, small changfa's both water and air cooled, the little aircooled are good for 3.5hp
and could drive an alternator to feed a car battery and an inverter if need be to cover some power needs
when things get dark and cold.

seems like one could be run on woodgas in dual fuel mode to extend the runtime of what available liquid fuels
one might have on hand.

we got 141 members now, any thought of trying this? or working on doing this? done it?

bob g
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hwew
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« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2009, 06:17:01 PM »

Here is some info Bob. They use an IDI S195 for the test engine. Smiley

http://www.fao.org/docrep/t4470e/t4470e0i.htm

 Here is a layout. http://www.fao.org/docrep/t4470e/t4470e7z.gif

Henry
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 06:19:02 PM by hwew » Logged
SHIPCHIEF
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« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2009, 09:50:42 PM »

Bob, Henry;
We've all read and heard about producer gas being used during WWII and after in Europe during post war reconstruction. Surely someone has a successful gas producer or someone is still alive who ran one? Trucks, Busses, Farm tractors?
I see a few Youtube posts of cars and vans, even an original Volvo truck, all running on producer gas. That Swedish kid with the red Volvo seems to have it running well.
Are the few people running these so secretive?
 
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mobile_bob
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« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2009, 10:02:37 PM »

Shipchief:

i think there is more than ample info available to build such a unit, we just gotta
work out the details, gather the bits and pieces, and put it together.

what i thought interesting was the reference to a 5 gallon pail size unit that was shown to provide
for 10hp and run an onan generator, that a significant amount of power, and in my opinion
something that would be quite useful.

I was thinking maybe someone like SteveU who seems to have more than a passing interest
in woodgas, might like to take a lead on such a project.

if not, maybe this winter i will take a stab and buildng one?

i already have one of the chinese gasifiers, but really don't want to fire it until i get it moved
and setup in kansas, sometime down the road.

the interior is lined with castable refractory, and i am not sure how it will hold up after being fired
and then moved 2000miles?  seems prudent to wait to set it up and fire it there.

bob g
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mobile_bob
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« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2009, 10:11:59 PM »

ok, ok, ok,,,,

jeeesh....

Smiley

bob g
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SHIPCHIEF
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« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2009, 10:57:23 PM »

Here's the link to the Youtube vid showing the Onan gen running on woodgas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPSWapPIwDw&feature=PlayList&p=C9170D6D0CC9591B&index=0&playnext=1
Looks like the gas generator was made from a water pressure head tank.
Pretty crafty.
That Onan and gasifier on a trailer looks like it belongs in this group!  Wink
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 11:00:22 PM by SHIPCHIEF » Logged
Dail R H
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« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2009, 12:40:55 PM »

   If we could figure out how to use sawdust,I'de be rich, with all the wast from this little sawmill of mine. Producer gas like a lot of other alternative fuels only seems like a good idea if all other fuels are unavailable.Lot of work n dirty ,but if that's all ya got,that's all ya got Cry Cry Cry
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SteveU.
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« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2009, 04:15:19 AM »

OK, OK, OK.
Woodgasification is a Demon that will drive you to watching endless video's after midnight; drive up you internet minutes from hours to days then weeks; cause you to send halfway around the world for obscure dusty books; have you searching for translation programs for Finnish, Swedish, French, Spanish, German and Indian. Your wife, hunting-fishing buddies will hate you, and your dogs and children will be lonely. Don't SAY I did not warn you.
MarcusB. covered Gasification 101 very well already on the other thread.
I can if anyone is interested post the links to videos classes, downloadable books and articles explaining Gasification 102: Zones and Zone control.
Yes the real gasifier men WILL know from your questions and talk whether you have invested your time in the basic reading and research and generally will cut you short until you do. They dislike time wasters, speculators, and armchairers even more than diesel engine generator men.
For now lets just skip to gasification 103.
All of the videos showing flaring or engine running on pyrolysis (Smoke!) gases are not gasification. The hyrocarbon and ash rich Particles will produce good power but abrasively tearup and tarry glue up an engine. This is almost instant filter clogging stuff.
The complex long chain hydrocarbons and tars heat released from the fuel stock have to be broken down (cracked) into the shorted chain gases of CO2 and H2 and H2O vapor. Takes a well defined 1200-1400 degree C. "White hot bright, like the sun" oxidization zone to do this. Then these completely combusted stable gases and remaining un-cracked tars have to be drawn through a bed of glowing red hot 1000-850 degree C. charcoal. This will thermal/chemically Reduce (simplify) the gases into the partially combusted  unstable gas of CO, easily combusted gases of CH4 and even more H2. The charcoal gives up heat and carbon molecules to do this and is consumed and must both be continually replenished. The atmospheric nitrogen, argon, excess water vapor, etc pass out through with the fuel gases. The water vapor needing to be condensed out and removed before any dry filtering.
Gasification for motor fuel will not work if you cannot precisely control all of the inlet air. Surprise! Too much air and you just made a combustion stove. Lots of heat. And fully combusted, now not engine combustible, CO2 and H2O gases.
Gasification will not work without enough heat. Wet fuels robs heat. High relative humidity inlet air robs heat. Poor/no insulation loses needed heat.
Gasification will not work with out a fuel that can produce charcoal. OR you will have to feed it out of system made charcoal. So by-by banana peels, bark, leaves, needles and most trash. Gasification likes best clean porous wood open cell woods.
To allow all of these different gases flows and reactions to take place you must allow and maintain interstitial space between the fuel and charcoal particles. The smaller the gasifier the smaller the particles must be. Vehicle sized gasifier fuel is large matchbox to small brick sized. 20-40 hp engine sized fuel can be small matchbox to cigarette packaged sized. Gasifiers for 3-5 horse power engines require coffee bean sized oven dried fuels. Irregular non-stacking shapes are the best. Look at how commercial charcoal briquettes lay against each other.
In a good working motor fuel gasification system the ash removal, gas cooling, water vapor condensing, and filtering systems will be three-four times as large as the gasifier itself.
Many systems have been years in the development proprietary and close held, have patents pending, university sponsorship, etc.
Some are released and open source. Wanna build a real gasifier?
Here is the simplest to build, newest small engine design on the block released by a Canadian designer named Luc Gosselin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?V=h3prbsBdYi0
Ha! Of course I can't get it to load correctly! Try searching out G3-I gasifier. Good video and he shows it woodsplitter engine running.
Build this one. Much better that a can-o-smoke tar machine.

Regards
SteveU.
 

« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 02:38:42 PM by SteveU. » Logged

"Use it up. Wear it out. Make do. Or do without."
"Trees are the Answer" to habitat, water, climate moderation, food, shelter, power, heat and light. Plant, grow, and harvest more trees. Then repeat. Trees the ultimate "no till crop". Trees THE BEST solar batteries. Now that is True sustainability.
mobile_bob
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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2009, 06:21:27 AM »

ok Steve:

i know you have been researching this stuff for a long time, and i also know you have invested in the
GEK unit that you are apparently at this time less than happy with, so...

my thinking is you have a design of your own you are working with, or thinking of developing

i understand if you need to keep that quiet, but at least tell us such a project exists

we promise not to show up on your doorstep  Smiley

bob g
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SteveU.
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« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2009, 12:53:36 PM »

BobG, I am working on four different design types more or less simultaneously. Each for different size of engines, climates and applications. I switch back and forth depending on my current understanding of gasification, finances, and the asked for interest. Only one could properly be called my own design - a very dirty operating, grossly fuel inefficient, heavy unportable mass-thermal brute force piece that will only be practically/legally usable in a post society/population collapse world to give you 80% space/waste heat and at best only 10-20% fuel gas. Heck, thats as good as simple steam systems. All of the best good current gasifier designs run 70-75% conversion efficient. ~30% of the solar energy value stored in the wood fuel is needed to produce the heat that drives the gasification process.
I will be posting progress and links to the design origination here. Promise.

Luc's design IS the Best I've found for the goals you outlines in your first post here.
Can be made of thick walled steel tubing or well casing. So simple and effective, when the walls burn through just make up another hearth piece.
It is already being made by others. This was his stated goal from the beginning an easy to build Everymans gasifier. He has now automated the cone hearth turning needs. And he is now building a much larger vehicle sized unit to be able to use larger chunked sized woods. Follow his Mrelevatorman YouTube videos. The goal of all of the big system vehicle users (350-500,000 BTU's an hour) is to ultimately be able to use variable size and moister content roadside found trash woods. A couple of them credibly claim to be there. Proprietary and/or sponsored systems.
All of the other open source designs I am trying and will post other than Luc's, will take progressively more materials, welding skill and math and reading to build up and make work.
Please believe me: the majority of what I've posted are not my ideas or discoveries. My peers are going to see their own words paarphrase quoted. Here is one:
"A Bio-Mass wood fueled gasifier is a self contained mini-fuel refinery you are hauling around on the back of your vehicle".
So Bio-Diesel people could you squeeze your processor, chemicals, with all of the energy inputs onto the back of your pick-up?
Diesel engine guys, if supplied with barrels of actual crude oil, could you refine out something engine combustible in a self contained, self made mini-refinery that would fit in the bed of your pick-up? Ha! Ha! I suspect member cognos could.
So why would I ask such silly questions??
Because that is exactly what the vehicle and stationary offgrid gasifier men are actually doing. It is bloody damn hard to do successfully. It ain't just wood burning. I have had to unlearn much.
If compression stored the H2 fuel gas is very hard and bulky to keep contained. The CO fuel gas is unstable and wants to recombine into CO2 and pure carbon soot with the energy input of storage compression pressurization. And you will use up 30+% of their motor fuel value to supply the energy to compression store these low BTU value gases. So most efficiently produced and used on demand. Ah! You were going to fudge like the YouTube video showing the Diesel powered Case articulating loader, delivering gasoline chainsaw precut logs, to be sliced up with an AC grid powered chop saw, eh? Thinking about just using a grid powered compressor to pre-store the woodgas from a large stationary gasifier system weren't you? Cheaper by far too just buy and store nice dense liquidfiable propane LPG or wood pellets.

Here is the REAL secret to successful woodgasification: quote, "It (success) is 75% experience, and only 25% mechanical", Wayne Keith.
This quiet capable Alabama farmer is the most successful, capable, fastest driving with the most miles driven vehicle gasifier man in the World. Watch his hands and feet trimming and operating his 5th generation system in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN5GEBbaf7Y
It ain't the killer-apl. design - it is the time actually getting down and dirty building and operating to get as much experience as possible under your belt. BBB! Mr Wayne.

Regards
SteveU.
 

« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 02:33:23 PM by SteveU. » Logged

"Use it up. Wear it out. Make do. Or do without."
"Trees are the Answer" to habitat, water, climate moderation, food, shelter, power, heat and light. Plant, grow, and harvest more trees. Then repeat. Trees the ultimate "no till crop". Trees THE BEST solar batteries. Now that is True sustainability.
cognos
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« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2009, 01:24:35 PM »

if supplied with barrels of actual crude oil, could you refine out something engine combustible in a self contained, self made mini-refinery that would fit in the bed of your pick-up? Ha! Ha! I suspect member cognos could.



 Grin  Grin  Grin

That's the nicest thing anybody's said to me all day...!

It's not true, though. I have some of the working knowledge, but not the practical ability. I know that's true for a lot of people - great ideas, but not enough tools in the drawer...

I love reading about these quests for efficiency and non-traditional uses of things, though. I'd like to see a real gasifier, just to play with it... Mainstream engineering tends to get pretty tame after a while.

I'm no engineer, though.

I've never even seen a running Lister(oid) in person, nor a Changfa-style engine. Someday. I have, however, made biodiesel. Just for fun, proof-of-concept.
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SteveU.
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« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2009, 03:37:47 PM »

Well then Mr cognos go for it.
Build, up or have a welder friend make you one of these Luc G3-I hearths. Quiz Luc, he is friendly.
Luc himself has offered his own original GEK for sale cheap on two different gasification forums. 175 pounds, UPS ground shippable. He made up a castable hearth for his and posted  a Youtube of it producing.
Keep an eye out for one of those Chinese gasification stoves. They were last on eBay for $400-600. A couple named Gregg and April have been detailing their development of one of these to make motor grade gas with an added cyclone and filter. They are very close now. At ~350 pounds, a you pick up or truck ship. I would trade my stainless GEK kit now straight across for one of these just to have something different to experience. Gas is gas. Most of these small systems really do need a very small chunked wooden fuel stock to make  a tar free motor grade gas. The Chineese stove could at least also make heating gas on trash fuel stock too.

Regards
SteveU.
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"Use it up. Wear it out. Make do. Or do without."
"Trees are the Answer" to habitat, water, climate moderation, food, shelter, power, heat and light. Plant, grow, and harvest more trees. Then repeat. Trees the ultimate "no till crop". Trees THE BEST solar batteries. Now that is True sustainability.
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« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2009, 11:48:39 PM »

Hi SteveU,
how do we go about getting some plans from Luc for the G3-I?
I see that he suggest emailing him for the plans to other persons, but I cant get his email address.

Now if we could get him to post some info in this thread, that would be neat  Cool

dubbleUJay
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dubbleUJay
Lister  - AK - CS6/1 - D - G1 - LR1 -
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WGB
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« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2009, 04:17:16 AM »

I'll try to get more info, I think FEMA has plans for one.
Have you guys heard of the guys from Jefferson County?
I have a CD of theirs, saw them at the Wisconsin energy fair.
They had a FEMA one, and the design they come up with.
Also they're on Youtube.
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dubbleUJay
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« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2009, 04:56:44 AM »

It will be neat if everyone who wants to build one, actually comes to an agreement to build more or less from the same plans.
Obviously a plan/design that we know works and is efficient.
That way info and problems can be shared between the guys, but I think also that might be impossible due to different engine sizes and there demand for gas and such.

Personally I would like to more or less meet the demand for a Lister CS single and keep the original fuel system, more or less a dual system like when one runs it on LPG, with a little diesel fuel being delivered at the same time and the stock governor regulating it.

Is this fuel delivery system what the majority of you guys also want to accomplish or do you want to run on gas exclusively?

I've got about 25-30 pigs on the farm at any one time, so I was going to either make a methane generator or a gasifier in the near future! I would like to keep my governor fuel system more or less standard to switch to any fuel I want or that's available at the time.

dubbleUJay
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dubbleUJay
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