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Author Topic: Z482 Belt Drive  (Read 6514 times)
greenhornet
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« on: May 29, 2016, 05:20:19 PM »

Hi Gang,

I am brand new to gensets and looking for advice and help in designing a variable speed belt drive generator using a Kubota Z482 and RV-160 Short electric motor. The genset will be going into a modified 144 volt Electric Centurion car thus creating a range extender for the vehicle.

Any help and advice on this build would be greatly appreciated. 

Here is a link to the BLDC motor that I would like to use = http://www.revolt.org.il/rv-160models/rv-160pro-short-2/
Here is a link to the Centurion car = http://rqriley.com/cent.html
Here is a set of plans that I have for a series hybrid car = http://www.motherearthnews.com/green-transportation/electric-car-conversion-zmaz79jazraw.aspx


 
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greenhornet
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« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2016, 05:43:25 PM »

The electric motor pictured with the Kubota engine above is a motenergy ME0913. I will be using this 30kw peak motor to power the Centurion car. These motors have been successfully used in electric racing motorcycles at voltages above 156V. They weigh in at 35lbs and pack a pretty solid punch. The plan is to modify the Centurion to a 3 wheeler via a Triumph Speedmaster rear swing arm welded to the Triumph Spitfire frame . The single rear wheel will be powered by this ME0913 electric motor via chain drive. I decided on this electric motor because of its power to weight ratio and the fact I was able to purchase it on sale for around $450. The Z482 that I have pictured I purchased off Ebay a while back and was setup already as a genset with Hayes parts but never used as it appears brand new from what I can tell.  

Here is a link to the ME0913 = http://www.cloudelectric.com/product-p/mo-me0913.htm
« Last Edit: May 29, 2016, 05:48:15 PM by greenhornet » Logged
BruceM
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« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2016, 06:00:22 PM »

A marvelous and ambitious project!  So will the Kubota rpm will be varied to provide charging current via the BLDC motor used as a 3 phase power source?  If so, the you'll need an engine speed controller to regulate rpm via rack actuator.  A member here did a marvelous engine speed and AVR design that might be adapted for your use. You might also want to think about what your electronics will be for battery charge/cell balancing. What are you using for batteries?

Normally small air cooled engines are used for this kind of application due to size and weight considerations so the Kubota is an unusual choice.  Tell us more!
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greenhornet
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« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2016, 08:27:10 PM »

Hi BruceM,

Yes the plan is to provide varied charging current via the Kubota to the BLDC motor. So yes I will be needing a solid engine speed controller. I would love to get into contact with the person you speak of who designed a similar setup. I don't have experience with this side of the project which is why I decided to try and gain the knowledge here.

The pure electric drive components are pretty much determined. I all ready have the controller for the ME0913. The controller is a sinewave design which is best for this type of motor. I was able to get it at half the price on sale so I am stuck with it at this point. Here is a link to it =http://kellycontroller.com/kls14301-8080ips24v-144v300asinusoidal-bldc-motor-controller-p-1381.html



The batteries I am going with are Lithium Iron Phosphate 12V 20ah GBS batteries from Elite Power Solutions. I have had GBS in the past and are of great quality so I will stick with them for this project. I will have 12 of these in series for a total of 2.880 KW of energy capacity. I will be using this as my primary work commuter and my commute is roughly 6.5mi each way mostly on surface streets. I can get on the freeway but I tend to stay away as it is usually stop and go at the time I leave for work. So I am sizing the battery for a 20mi range only on pure electric. The occasional trip across town is when I would utilize the Kubota range extender. Here is a link to the batteries = http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=145&osCsid=268b90ccd18549bfab8f03503356a4d7   



Battery charging and cell balancing will be achieved with the Oriion BMS system. I decided to go with the Orion because it is paired with my EV gauge cluster and also is compatible with my Motor controller via Canbus. Here is a link to the controller website = http://www.orionbms.com/products/orion-bms-standard/




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greenhornet
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« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2016, 08:44:34 PM »

The vehicle gauge cluster I will be using is from a Company called Andromeda Interfaces Inc. They have done an outstanding job with there cluster and it can be customized to whatever I can think up. This cluster is fully compatible with my motor controller and battery management system pretty much plug and play. That was the big reason I went with this component but I also really like the functionality and it just looks awesome  Grin Here is a link to there website = http://ai-displays.com/









« Last Edit: May 29, 2016, 08:48:51 PM by greenhornet » Logged
greenhornet
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« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2016, 09:27:06 PM »

[quote Normally small air cooled engines are used for this kind of application due to size and weight considerations so the Kubota is an unusual choice.  Tell us more!
[/quote]

I decided on the Kubota Z482 vs a small air cooled unit because I wanted the best reliability and fuel economy. Kubota motors are known for this and they also are easy to get parts for. The Z482 I figured with the right BLDC electric motor/generator would be capable of a sustained 7.5kw and possibly 10kw peak with some engine tweaks. My calculations tell me that this is just enough to handle 100% of my driving mileage at moderate speeds and even up to the occasional 65mph freeway speeds. The Z482 is very compact for a water cooled unit at 117lbs so weight can be kept to a minimum utilizing the revolt 11lb BLDC motor which is rated for 8kw continuous and 15kw peak. I also preferred the diesel so that I can retrofit a biodiesel system on it once I have everything figured out.

The Centurion car itself is very interesting currently there are only 4 in the world that we know of. I purchased mine out in Michigan just about a year ago. The car is in need of a complete overhaul so I figured why not do something a little different with it. The original car had a curb weight of 1,200lbs with a 3 cylinder Kubota D750 engine. The car achieved over 100mpg with this motor. Originally I was just going to electrically supercharge the 2 cylinder diesel and run it purely on diesel. But after getting the electric supercharger setup I felt like it was a bit overkill for my situation. Not to mention it added 100lbs of weight to the car. So since 99% of my driving miles are urban surface streets I started to consider designing a hybrid. The series hybrid is the simplest in theory to design and in my opinion is the simplest to maintain. Going this route allowed me to eliminate a lot of moving expensive parts. I was able to eliminate the engine to transmission adapter, bell housing, clutch, transmission, overdrive unit, propshaft and rear differential. This gives me a lot of space to play with and reduces weight by quite a bit actually. I then decided to go with 3 wheels to simplify the drive and further eliminate parts and weight. This allowed me to get rid of an entire corner and the rear leaf spring. If anybody knows anything about Triumph Spitfire rear ends than they know that this is the biggest knock on these cars as they have a leaf spring suspension vs a true IRS. Well that is not entirely true as later cars did upgrade to a full IRS but initially they used the leaf spring setups. However I figured that by incorporating a Triumph Speedmaster rear motorcycle swing-arm into the design would simplify things and actually improve handling of this tiny car. Also it would cut costs quite a bit which would alloy me to get the Kubota genset together quicker. Triumph rear ends can get pretty expensive to rebuild these days. Speedmaster parts are cheap and inexpensive and I still end up with a full Triumph chassis at the end just with 3 wheels  Grin   
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mike90045
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« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2016, 11:42:08 PM »

Consider a cog belt drive like a motorcycle, instead of chain.  nearly as strong, much quieter, no oil sling.
 But you do have to dial the GO pedal back, or the electric motor will tear the cogs off the belt.
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greenhornet
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« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2016, 01:54:40 AM »

Hi Mike,

They do have a belt drive kit for the Triumph Speedmaster. They are a little spendy but as you pointed out the belt drives are more quiet and no need for lubrication. You sparked my interest on this so I did a little research and was able to find a few possibilities. They are both 98% efficient and have a great deal of sprocket options. My thought with the chain drive was to shoot for a 4.20 gear ratio to start with. This should give me a good balance of top end speed and starting torque. I might be able to piece together my own belt drive for a good bit less than what vendors are asking for there finished kits. The cheapest I have seen is around $520. Most are like $700 and up. This is to much in my opinion but if I could piece together my own setup for much less than the belt drive would look much more attractive.

#1. http://www.newenglandbelting.com/GoodyearEagle_TimingBelts.asp
#2. http://www.veyance.com/ProductsDetail.aspx?id=3400
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BruceM
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« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2016, 10:11:57 AM »

Very, very impressive, GreenHornet!  You've really got this project well in hand. That Orion BMS looks very interesting.  I'll take a look at the details of it tonight. You need some sort of feedback from the battery management system to the engine/speed controller.  I don't know what's already out there for a controller, but even if you hove to do a roll your own via an Arduino or similar microcontroller it's not a show stopper.  Does the Kubota a mechanical or electrical governor already there?


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greenhornet
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« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2016, 12:43:09 PM »

Hi BruceM,

Well I think the project is starting to get sorted out but I have a ton to learn and figure out with the genset build. I hope some people in this forum can steer me into the right direction. I have started reading a book called The Zero-Carbon Car which goes through a series hybrid design and build with a small Kubota engine like mine. I am pretty excited to see what I can get from that hopefully they will go in depth on the engine controller.

My Kubota Z482 currently has a variable speed mechanical governor. I will definitely need to come up with an electronic setup. I am going to try to talk with some genset companies on this and see if they might be so kind to help me out a little on component sourcing.

Well BruceM it was a pleasure talking with you and thanks for the input it is greatly appreciated.

Talk to you later,

GH..
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mobile_bob
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« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2016, 04:29:36 PM »

they make cog belt drives that will handle several hundred hp, so i would expect there is an option that the little diesel would never rip the cogs off of.

sounds like a cool project!

bob g
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BruceM
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« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2016, 10:09:58 AM »

GH- just did a quick read the operations manual for the Orion BMS.  You've got both analog (0-5v) and Canbus signals for an engine controller.  It does battery balancing in a strange (to me) way; shutting off the bulk high voltage charging source when the first (series connected) cell is full and then drawing on the fuller cells to bring up the low ones.  So a transformer isolated boost converter is needed for every single cell; and they must have some issues with current handling of their balancing scheme so stop charging until the full cell is no longer full.  A very complex piece of real time software control. No wonder this is not cheap.  While this is not the fastest charging method, it should be very energy efficient.   

I think I would prefer a simpler bypass regulator type system myself, but the Orion BMS looks very capable and sophisticated.

I use a bypass regulator type system (of my own design) for my home power 120VDC battery bank.



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glort
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« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2016, 06:36:34 PM »


This sound interesting but there are a few things I don't get that you may be able to clarify.

You say that the primary use of your car will be to go to work and occasionaly across town which is why you want the motor to increase range.
Looking at the specs, it appears you could more than double your battery capacity for the same weight as the motor. That not even taking into account the generator, controllers and other things. If this is to be a use specific Vehicle, I'm wondering why not just simplify the whole thing and make it purely electric?
 Obviously the space and weight saving is there if you eliminate the engine to double or even triple your capacity.

Probably not practical for this car but in my daydreaming of electric vehicles, I have always thought of a small trailer with the generator on board. That way for the in range trips you don't have to carry the weight or have the complication and when you want to go further, hitch up the gen trailer and all you need is a control and a current cable connected between the car and the trailer and your set.  You could size the trailer for extra luggage capacity and also don't have to worry about cooling and fuel.

I was watching an EV vid the other night and the guy made up a battery trailer for his vehicle and had about a 300 mile range all up. It was a nicely styled trailer with great aerodynamics and even had a generator on one wheel for regen braking going down hills which offset the very moderate weight of the trailer itself.  He had extra luggage capacity as well as a built in water tank and other features.
May not be able to fit a tow bar to your vehicle but for others seems an idea worthy of consideration.

The other thing I'm wondering about is how it is more efficient to have an engine convert it's energy to electricity and then have that converted back to mechanical power? If you have an engine, wouldn't the most efficient use be to have it coupled to the driving wheels through a CV  transmission? I can't see how all the conversion which is always a loss is going to save more fuel than just a simple CV mechanical drive.
 I'm thinking all wheel drive. Electric on one set of wheels and engine on the others.

I'm not sure if you are doing this as a project in what you want to do or if you are trying to make an efficient vehicle.

I'd love a small electric for running round especially something I could charge off my solar panels but the cost and difficulty of building something, for me outweighs that desire.
Good on you for going to the effort though.
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greenhornet
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« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2016, 01:40:58 AM »

Hi glort,

I think I am just going to go all electric like you suggested. Instead of converting the Centurion to electric I am leaning toward my own body design. I kind of want to keep the Centurion as is with some minor changes. I have gone back and forth on this now for a while and I always go back to something electric. So I might as well just do it instead of trying to do a more complex hybrid put of the Centurion. Besides the Centurion can actually achieve 250mpg and a top speed of 85mph with its 3 cylinder Kubota heavily modified. So why deviate from that kind of fuel economy. I can also run it on Bio Diesel which would be better yet. So instead of a do it all vehicle I can make my life easier and just built a specific all electric for around town. Then I can use the Centurion for across country trips Smiley

I think my mind is made up on this one with your help  Smiley

A trailer would be cool and an all wheel drive would be awesome. Those projects will have to wait unfortunately as I have my hands full at the moment.

So where does that leave us with the Z482 belt drive? Well I still see a need for an genset in the near future. So I would like to keep things going on this and try to learn as much as I can from the control and build stand point. I have some property that I plan to build on in the future that is perfect for a small cabin type off grid setup. I think having a genset around would be a good idea. 
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LincTex
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« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2017, 12:57:44 PM »

I'd love to see some progress reports!

Belt drives can be STOUT. My Harley-Davidson produces nearly 90 lbs/ft of torque, and that is multiplied almost 4X when in 1st gear. Even on a 800 lb motorcycle with 220 lb rider, it will almost do a wheelie before the back tire breaks loose.

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